Why 50 Is the Half Time of Your Professional Career

Q1 Stanford Centre for Longevity

ContraMinds Podcast (00:02.821)

So Neeraj, one of the things I found with what you do today, you are also a global ambassador for the Stanford Center for Longevity, which is a very interesting piece of work that you do and that’s also very closely related to the company that you run. And I wanted to really understand what does Stanford Center of Longevity work on and how is it relevant to today’s work and career.

Neeraj Sagar (00:40.546)

You know again, I think you are asking questions that make me think Swami. So let me start by why I joined Stanford Center on Longevity. And then I think, I also realised that I not a very… I have more simple answers to complicated questions. So maybe I am not sure what your audience may like. But my simple answer is I joined Stanford Center for Longevity because I could. Right, so someone recommended my name. They said you guys are doing some of this cool work for the last 13 years. Neeraj is someone that you should consider as an ambassador because he is an ambassador already. Plus he’s from Stanford, so that would be good. So the reason a bunch of us, we are the second cohort of ambassadors for Stanford Center on Longevity. The first cohort was Stanford’s way of saying, look, we’ve been doing some cool work, but we have no way of getting feedback back in. Because in a way, everything we are doing is us telling everybody what it should be. But at the end, the reality is it has to be implemented. The reality is that it has to have real world impact, not just theoretical stuff that we talk about.

And so they now then came up with the second cohort. And the second cohort came by asking the first cohort, who would you like to recommend who’s working on the space? So that’s how I think 15 of us got picked.

And we sort of showed up the first time we all met was we did some online stuff… they have something called the Century Summit every year Which means and again, it’s linked to a hundred year life So that’s why it’s called Century Summit and of course you’ve talked about the new map of life Which is what they’ve come up with which is the basis of what we do. But that’s how we got him now after we all got him we realized now we’re gonna do something also and but you know the cool thing about Stanford is they allow you to explore, find out and do things together. What has happened is and then I’ll answer your question specifically on work and life and all of that. But what has happened is we’ve all got together, we’ve created small themes on different aspects and now we are working on those aspects to bring it to the real world… As an example – so I am a part of what they call the workforce team. There are seven or eight of us and eight of us on this team. We are all in different parts of the world. We bring our perspectives of what we are learning. We take what we can from what we’ve heard from Stanford and say, okay, now what does this mean? 

And honestly, the Stanford umbrella allows us more access, which allows us to come together and do things and then go back to organizations to say, look, this is what you should be doing. And this is how, if you do this, this fits in better with the new map of life. So, and so for example, I’m a part of two work streams. One Tiger team is this workforce Tiger team. And for some reason, I’ve gotten pulled into the media tiger team, right? And it’s how we call it, where we are exploring how do we leverage media personalities to enhance or strengthen narratives for longevity.

ContraMinds Podcast (04:00.794)

Okay.

ContraMinds Podcast (04:11.109)

Thank

ContraMinds Podcast (04:19.981)

okay and why longevity?

Neeraj Sagar (04:22.776)

So, for example…

ContraMinds Podcast (04:26.073)

Why longevity?

Neeraj Sagar (04:27.182)

I think that’s the theme, right? The Stanford Center for Longevity. But I think you asked a much more pertinent question, which in a way links to why I started Wisdom Circle. So I’m actually now, because you asked this question on longevity, I’m now going to take a step back and then answer those questions around how I see work and…

…you know, one of the things that I realized about four years ago, five years ago, was everyone I spoke to was talking about longevity. And in this, or so whenever you talk about aging, people are talking about how to live longer.

So there’s a lot of investment going on in science, there’s a lot of investment going on in multiple areas on how do we make humans live longer. Not enough work was being done on what will you do if you live longer. Right? And while you’re doing that in the middle comes AI. Now AI is saying you don’t do whatever you are doing even that you don’t need to do. Right? So now we have a double-edged sword and literally people are saying, universal basic income. Like what will people do? How do you restructure humanity? 

At one level Stanford is working on how do you get younger people ready to live like what they’re basically saying is… 

…any kid that is being born today has a very high likelihood of touching 100. Right without much changes to I mean except you know health and diet and you know how you sort of take care of yourself etc. But it’s a very real problem that is going to face humanity. You know we are giving better health care, better medicines, there’s better knowledge. AI is going to tell us what to do. We’re all going to live longer. But then we’ll be like, so let me define what that future looks like. We will be depressed. Agers who the only thing we will be able to do is look at other ages and tell them what you know, it’s I’m just saying, I can’t even imagine it’s gonna be crap. Right? It’s like you want to die, but nobody’s letting you die.

Right? And you still have to live. Now the question is, how much television, how much what? So then you start working backwards. Which now answers, now let’s answer your question about the role of, and I think how did you define it? Work, learn and earn. So where do you want to start?

ContraMinds Podcast (07:08.901)

Correct.

Q2 Today’s Organizations

ContraMinds Podcast (07:12.473)

So let’s start with work because the way organizations look at workforce today, even longevity, there’s going to be fundamental changes that they even need to rethink about employees and employability, right? So therefore, can you talk about that?

Neeraj Sagar (07:21.646)

Hmm.

Neeraj Sagar (07:35.936)

Okay, so let me start with the extreme end. 

So you heard of DAOs and all that, right? Distributed Autonomous Organizations. So you have that level of disparate way of working versus the traditional corporate way that exists today. My view is the current big organizations are going to struggle with readjusting because to change them is more difficult than starting a new company and having the new company do something differently. So I actually think, this is again my view, that we’ll have as time goes we’ll have newer companies and newer models come up than existing companies and existing models changing to adapt to this new way of working.

And the example is like, you when I go talk to people, it’s a simple example. 

When I talk to organizations to say, look, can you create roles for experts who want to work part time? The current HR systems are so ingrained, where to move one piece, you have to move 10 other pieces right? you know, our org chart doesn’t have this. If someone comes, who will they report to? How will we pay them? How will we handover if they only work two days and the other three days someone else works? 

So I think, you know, it’s like how India bypassed landlines in a whole way to actually get to digital because yes we had landlines, yes we had the weights but at the end we still progressed much more on telecom than the US did for example. 

So my view is there will be a significant shift in newer age companies adapting to this new way of work as opposed to current big companies changing it.

Right. 

So and I can see that in my own startup, the way we work is very different from how I work in the traditional companies. We don’t have any set time of coming in or leaving. There’s a lot more flexibility on on leave and when people come, when they work, what they do. I think we have we have rituals. Right. So, for example, a Friday lunch ritual. Everybody shows up. Right. So I actually think you know, organizations will become ritual based to bring people together, but at the same time, adapting to what individuals need and how they want to work.

So the role of HR shifts, the role of expertise shifts, the role of management shifts. Then you are now and the good part is during COVID we’ve actually seen a lot of this happen already. So the base has been set of what is possible. That you can get productive organizations without actually having people there. Now, of course, there are these questions around culture and this and that. 

So again, the change will be and now let me approach it from an organization. 

Organizations are are coming to us saying, look, we want 10 % of our workforce as flexible workforce. I have this is a signal this is a $40 billion company that we are working with, which has told us in measuring terms, 10% of our staff, senior staff should be on flexible payroll, which means they can work when they want plus we can fire them when we want. So this whole notion of… and again, so that is going to change. 

The other thing which we are already seeing, the ability of older people to continue working has increased and will continue to increase. There are many more people who are older or post retirement who want to continue working. Then there are roles for those people today.

So I think there is also that shift of desire to continue working. Now, whether the desire is for continuing to make money, and I have a view there as well, I actually think the desire is to stay relevant and be respected, right? 

And to stay relevant, which then, you know, talks about learn and we’ll talk about that. But there will be pockets. I mean, right now, even in my friend circle, people talking about, you know, I wish I had taken, you know, 10 years off when my kids were between eight and 18.

Because that’s the time I want to spend with them because after 18 they’ll go their way, I can then come back. So I think building in flexibility into work, women anyway do it or rather sometimes are forced to do it by themselves or by the nature of society and how it’s structured. But now I think it will become a lot more prevalent. However, it’s not on the horizon. I mean, you see, it’s… we know it will happen, but it’s not happening.

Q3 Wisdom Circle

ContraMinds Podcast (12:50.245)

Yeah.

So I just want to pull back for a minute and talk about your startup Wisdom Circle, which I found very interesting. So talk to me about Wisdom Circle and what you do at Wisdom Circle and then we will plug in what you’re talking about. So I want to plug in the Stanford Center of Longevity along with the changing workplace that you spoke about. Talk about Wisdom Circle first and then I’ll probably plug in some of the points and we will connect those points as we gather our thoughts.

Neeraj Sagar (13:28.686)

Perfect. So let me tell you the genesis of wisdom circle. 

The genesis of wisdom circle was I stopped coloring my hair, suddenly all my hair was white and suddenly I realized that people start looking at me different and I was in my early 40s then. I’m 54 right now.

And that’s when I realized there’s something going on here. I was getting a lot more respect. Now there is in the Western world there is ageism. For me it was working the other way. I’m getting my driver’s license renewed in 15 minutes. I’m always getting a seat on the Indigo bus. I take the metro someone older than me stands up for me and says sir please sit. And I’m thinking and you know I’m even client like I’m the client facing work I would go to meet very senior people. Earlier I would be made to wait outside with the reception till they would you know available. Now I was ushered into the boardroom, given better cutlery to drink tea and I was thinking man this is something wrong, right? 

Suddenly the white hair is… But then at the same time people are like he’s done like there were people older than me in my own company asking me how many more years I had to retirement and I had 20 years for retirement left. I was 42 and retirement was at 62 and they’re asking me when are you retiring and I said you know again so that was the other side of it.

So then that is what got me started on studying the subject. So during COVID, I read a lot about longevity and aging. I probably have about 60, 70 books on the subject. So that’s how the journey started. We try to understand what is going on, which I don’t understand. Because most of us understand this as we get older. In my view, I started understanding it when I was being treated as old, but I don’t think I was old.

So again took a lot of courses, learnt. Then what happened was because now I started looking a little more wiser, a lot of senior people started approaching me to say, Neeraj, can you advise us what we should do if we retire? And that’s when I realized that the problem was much, much bigger. And I think in the years that I was there, probably hundreds of people I’ve spoken to who would say Neeraj, you’re retiring, don’t know what to do.

So I would ask them, do you have enough money? What do you want to do? And most people were lost, right? Because life was, you know, life the way it was, pre-retirement was purpose enough for them. You know, bring up the kids, buy a house, you know, become a CEO or become a CXO or become an expert. And suddenly, you know, India still had 58 and then had become 60. And there’s some companies still have 58 to say, okay, you’re done.

So that got me thinking again to say the world we’re all solving for younger people, but this massive demographic issue that is literally in this case on the horizon that we are closing our eyes to, to say it’s not my problem. When it is my problem, I will look. So that’s the genesis of wisdom circle.

And then when we started, we realized this is not an India problem. It was a global problem. The manifestation of it is very different. How it manifests in South Korea is different from how it manifests in Singapore, in the US, in Europe, in the UK, in Africa, in the Middle East. In some cases, have younger population, older population. But India itself, the issue…

… the paradox of India is we have one of the lower median ages in the world with the second largest population in quantity over the age of 60. We have 150 million people Swami today who are over the age of 60 in India. By 2050 this will become 300 million people. 

Now even if you take a sliver of that to say oh I’m only going to look at white-collar, I’m only going to look at you know people who are doing that you know are working for someone and I look at Provident Fund data and I come up with even that is so big.

And by the way, these people are not dying. The healthcare system are making them live. So then this whole, so that’s the, now what do we do? We essentially, our initial purpose was that we’re going to bring both the sides together, organizations and people. What we have realized in the three years of doing this, that there are way many more people who want to work meaningful contribution than there are organizations that want to leverage them.

In a country like India, we worry about, will they take away younger people’s jobs? So therefore, why should we, the old people have lived their life, let them be, let’s focus on younger people. What they don’t realize is there is so much wisdom, knowledge, experience, skills, sitting with this group that is getting sidelined that can be used for the betterment of economies, countries, intergenerational, know, upliftment.

So we started with the idea, okay, we’re going to do three things. We’re going to help organizations leverage this talent pool. 

The second one was I said, look, how can I create a million teachers out of retirees? 

By the way, the other word we’ve sort of now built in many countries, they don’t like the word retiree. 

So we’ve come up with post-career professionals.

Don’t ask me what it means, but I think it means something similar. we’re trying. still say, because the word retirement means stop, but we’re saying you have to continue working. it’s not, anyway, you get it right. So the second is this. 

Third is social impact organizations leveraging the segment. It’s free for people to come sign up on our platform. We call this group the wisdom generation. We say, look, it doesn’t matter what age you are when you sign up.

We don’t restrict anybody because we say, everyone’s going to get over it. Come sign now or come sign later. You can see. But we prefer people to be over 50 or at least in that second half of their biological age limit if you look at a 0 to 100. And we help organizations tap into this pool for short duration and part-time opportunities. 

So that’s what we do.

ContraMinds Podcast (19:46.625)

And in your platform today how many people have registered themselves.

Neeraj Sagar (19:51.512)

So as of this morning, we have 101,000 people. And it’s just not stopping. And we don’t market ourselves too much. That’s why saying there’s a huge gap. And we’ve only been able to list like 2,500-odd roles. So there is a 1:40 gap. I mean, for every 40 people who want to work, there’s only one opportunity. Now, it’s on us as well. But you know.

Very… brilliant. 

Q4 Experts for Organizations

So therefore, clearly, there is this post-career professional looking for opportunities and therefore, that’s one important trend that you are seeing. At the other end, you’re talking about organizations wanting flexible workforce and therefore, at least…the fact that they should change the way they hire, there needs to be a new way of thinking where what percentage is flexible. So can you talk about that and how do you really connect and plug in this need?

Neeraj Sagar (20:43.779)

Get it.

Neeraj Sagar (20:56.216)

You know, so again a very insightful question, Swami. This is the idealistic scenario, right? The idealistic scenario is organizations want to do this, people want to work. Here’s the reality on the ground. The reality on the ground is change is difficult. Change is very, very difficult. You know, the gig work economy. 

So in a way what we are doing is we’re doing gig work for seniors or, you know, more seasoned professionals.

Gig work for younger people has finally been accepted, right? So if you want a UI UX designer, you want this that people will plug in and get these people. You’ll go to the Upworks and Fivers of the world and you sort of find people and do it. But there is nothing that exists for this larger segment. People want to, but they don’t know how to. So they default to what they know. Therefore changing this… so if you go to any organization, and you tell them look I can get you this expert and they know exactly what to do but they will not come full time they’ll be like you know so the reaction is so when the rubber hits the road they’ll be like okay I don’t know what to do so my view is it’s going to take longer it’s going to need more it needs a narrative change. 

It needs a, like we have mutual funds, have sort of a narrative change and similarly you need a narrative change that look it’s okay to actually have wiser people on your payroll to help your organization do better things.

So, but you know the case is a very value driven case. I actually, in fact, initially when we started, know, some people suggested, look, this is a diversity inclusion situation, right? You should, this is a question you had asked me, I think, before we started recording on this intergenerational piece. So, here’s what’s going on in the world, right? In the world, And of course, a president of a country has actually changed the definition of diversity and inclusion. But DEI started getting age diversity as a part of diversity and inclusion. What we have found out in talking to hundreds of people of not thousands is this segment does not want to be treated as a diverse segment.

They’re saying hire us for what we know and what we are good at. Don’t tell me I’m a part of diversity quota because I’m old. So there is ageism, but you know, let’s not overly play out the ageism scenario and give us inclusion because of ageism. Right? So they say…

…so therefore our pitch to organizations is here’s the value that they add. So again, this is, you know, a Neeraj metric, which is the per unit cost of wisdom is lower as you get older. Right? And it’s valuable, I’m saying is the actual cost for a company is lower because people are not driven by money only. They’re driven by respect a lot more, relevance a lot more. So I think we had seen the change happen. There are, like I said, you we’re actually already worked with more than 250 organizations. So we’re actually quite positive that this is picking up. But what we are also finding, Swami, is the aspiration that we have doesn’t exist. There’s hardly any company in the world trying to attempt doing what we are doing at scale. 

There companies who’ve tried, who basically said, again, the same logic, supply is there, but getting demand is difficult. So I tell people…

…our real job as wisdom circle is more from what we said earlier, which is a platform, know, to we are evangelists to create jobs for the segment. To create meaningful work opportunities for the sector. So the conversation I’ve had with everyone is, are there roles in your organization where you feel a problem can be solved by good people or good expertise and you need it now? That’s the pitch. So that’s what we’re doing.

We are again because now we are in different markets. We can actually do a lot of cross border. 

In fact, other learning is there are wisdom pockets in the world that need to get connected. So for example, there’s a pocket of engineers sitting in Germany. There’s a pocket of mining folks sitting in Chile. There are people who are good at finance and commercial stuff, a lot more sitting in London and New York. So how do you connect wisdom pockets of expertise to countries, companies, spaces, functions that need the expertise. We are thinking from equalizing the world kind of perspective. And it’s not possible, right? This wasn’t possible pre-COVID. Now remote work is possible, payment across borders has become possible. Of course, you have to make sure labor laws are covered and you’re doing the things the right way. That’s what we do.

ContraMinds Podcast (26:14.159)

Beautiful 

Q5 Learning and Curiosity

ContraMinds Podcast (26:14.159)

So which then brings me to the next aspect of longevity which is really the way you learn right so if I am a say middle manager middle manager today where you know I have probably I’m in my 30s and 40s you are going to be somebody who should become an expert when you age. Therefore your ability to learn becomes very important and therefore the way you learn also probably needs to change. So how do think people should approach it? Because that is becoming more critical because if I want if I have to be relevant when I’m 50 I need to learn when I’m in my 30s and 40s. So I need the flexibility and adaptability to be ready in my 50s and the 60s to actually work. So what should I do in the interim decade or you know say two decades that I should be a how should I prepare myself to learn.

Neeraj Sagar (27:20.53)

It’s very deep question and I don’t think I’m qualified to answer the question the right way but let me tell you what I think.

I think that the people who will adapt in this changing world are people who are inherently curious. And if you are the kind saying tell me what to do, I’ll do it. You have limited runway. Now, curiosity is very difficult to learn as you get older. So this is one of those things that has to start much sooner.

So the advice I would give to my children or rather my children of course don’t listen to me but to my friends children would be is you know what Tim Cook used to say, not Tim Cook, what Steve Jobs used to say is be curious. 

There’s something about curiosity and curiosity is of two kinds…

and this is what we learned at Egon is 

…there is curiosity of the outside world and there’s curiosity about the self and so therefore curiosity means a mix of both.

You have to know who you are and what are you good at and what you like and what not like and what gives you joy, what is your flow, know, all of that scientific stuff. But you also have to be curious of how the world is changing. Now, can it be learned? Yes, of course it can be. But the first thing is you have to… find joy in being curious because so that’s one piece. 

The second piece and this is a very close friend of mine who now runs a very large AI company that he started at the age of 57 used to tell me and in fact he’s one of the smartest people I know so one of the questions I would always ask him is what should I be teaching my kids? What should my kids be learning so that they can adapt to this changing world? And he made a very profound statement to me which has stuck. He said, teach the kids how, what did he say? He says, they need to learn how to learn. That was his statement. Because in their lifetimes, they will have to unlearn and relearn many times. 

So, that notion and I think it links well with curiosity, this ability to continue learning and unlearning and learning again. Now, while that is on, I think you actually also talked about the expertise part. 

What we are finding in today’s day and age is that the value of depth is way more than the value of general management.

So in India what happens at least is, or in most part of the world, know, India especially, right? You ask anybody what do they want? They want to be a manager. Right? They want to be CEO. I actually, and right now we’re seeing it on our platform. If you are damn good, like the other day we got a call, can you help us find a super critical boiler expert? And we’ll pay whatever we have to pay. And we’re like… he says, because everybody’s become general managers. Nobody knows the engineering and the science and the subject. So which is, by the way, a country level problem in many countries, whereas there some countries, like in Europe, which are much more deeper in a subject.

So I actually think and my view therefore is I’m not saying like, you know, I look at myself and the whole story I told you about going to business school and becoming learning many things. I think that’s the curiosity part, but you have to get deeper. And for me, the example is the 15 years of doing the same thing over and over again and getting good at it is what gives me the confidence today that I can handle anything in this subject area. But if tomorrow AI takes over the job, I’m like, okay, I got to learn something new and I have to get good at something else again. So that’s my my take on these two subjects.

ContraMinds Podcast (31:12.795)

Very nice, very nice Neeraj. 

Q6 A Happy 65-year-olds-week

Which then takes me to the next pillar, which is really, so let me pull back a bit. So what we said was, I think the longevity of careers are increasing. Therefore, the way we work is changing, the way we learn, we have to change, and the way we earn is going to change, right? So therefore, how do you see the way we earn changing? Because, you know, the fact that lifelong employment increments year after year, sustained jobs, are there changes that you are seeing and therefore if I were moving in my life, how should I approach the way I earn?

Neeraj Sagar (32:07.342)

My Swami, asked very difficult questions. I wish there were some simple answers.There is no simple answer. Again, I am going to attempt, take a stab at attempting it.

ContraMinds Podcast (32:16.047)

No, the reason I’m asking that Neeraj is you got about 100,000 people in your platform. Now the way they look at how they want to earn is an indicator, okay, for me on how I need to prepare when I actually reach there, right? So because that’s something that I think we all have to be ready for, which means that even at the age of say 30 or 40, my ability to look at FlexiPay, my ability to look at a gig work, my ability to look at expertise. All that needs a change and that’s the reason I’m asking that question.

Neeraj Sagar (32:53.486)

You know, it’s a very good question. maybe I’ll answer this a little differently and then please bear with me. The way I’m going to answer this question is what does today’s 65, a happy 65 year old today’s seven day week look like? Okay. So again…

What does the happy 65-year olds seven day week today look like?

And it’ll answer inherently the questions you’ve asked on today’s situation. Which is, it’s a portfolio life, which means they do multiple things. 

So if you take the seven days, the first two days are earning by doing things that you’re really good at. So if I’m a very good marketing person, I work for two days a week with different companies, one company, 

multiple companies to do, 

…to transfer my marketing skills to the benefit of value creation and then earning money. 

The money I earn in those two days is enough for me to sustain my week and not dip into my savings. 

So there’s an element of savings, right? Which you’ll also talk about. That’s my two days.

The third day is a day of teaching. 

And you had asked this question about intergenerational connections. What we have found in research is 

…the ability to stand up and teach, literally get up and teach younger people is such an important part of no matter what age you’re at, of feeling very relevant.

Now you may or may not get paid for it, but that’s your third day. 

Your fourth day is a day of giving, where you work for a non-profit, social impact…

or you know because again in the research that we have done in these hundred thousand people is a lot of people want to. See these are things and when we ask people are you happy and we kind of understand their portfolio life, this is what we find.

This is what 80 % of the, and there are always edge cases, but 80 % of the people have this fourth day of social impact, right? So you’ve got 40. 

The balance three days are a mix of learning, a mix of family and travel. You know, spiritual, whatever you put it, these are those three days are your days of staying relevant. Now this is the broader context of a happy 65-year old today. 

So portfolio life.earning and giving, teaching and learning and spending time with family. 

Now you start working backwards. When you are 55, you’re learning, so in a way you’re playing around with this, right? So you know your teaching may be on the weekend, your giving may be on the weekend and it may be four days of working or five days of working but that starts shrinking, right? And but the underlying thing of this is the is you still need to save money. 

Now let’s work backwards on the bigger question you asked. Earn.

I think my advice and what I’ve learned of all people who are happy as they get older have a much better handle on their own finances. 

Right? So this whole notion that we see and I see this in younger people today is let me spend what I earn. Like even in my team, I have people, okay, I don’t want to save for my retirement yet. But you know, we’ll, so a lot of us push out the future part and I think if you want to have a better life in the future, you have to save more sooner and you have to work.

As Morgan Housel says in his book, you have to let compounding work for you. 

Because if you don’t do it early on, so that’s one piece. 

The second piece is health insurance. think a lot of people miss even, it’s a small, I mean, you think, are they health insurance? I know, we’ll see, right now I don’t have any problem. Health insurance, life insurance, these costs go up as you get older. I tell people, a lot of people who are even retiring, I say, you know, if there’s one thing that will drain your finances, no matter how much you have saved is not having enough health insurance and getting stuck with a health problem. 

So to come back to your question on earning, I think opportunities to earn will increase, commitment of organizations to individuals is already reducing, you have to take care of yourself. If you take care of yourself, the money you earn, make sure you don’t spend it all and save it, make sure compounding works for you sooner than later. 

And now the question on learning, which I think something I missed. It all goes in tandem, right? So you’re learning, earning, unlearning, learning, earning, so also it’s a and you have to be prepared for it mentally. This whole notion that, I did this and I’m going to be dependent for the rest of my life on something I did. It’s not going to work.

ContraMinds Podcast (38:13.723)

So the fact that be ready for volatility, be ready for change, be ready to have a portfolio life. think you’ve really put it very well. think you are…

Neeraj Sagar (38:24.312)

Correct. And have the money to last. Right? Because, so I was talking to somebody yesterday and he was leaving at 55 and he asked me, okay, you know, I’m thinking of having this portfolio. I mean, didn’t phrase portfolio life, but that’s what he was saying he wanted to do. He wanted to be a coach. He wanted to be a mentor. He wanted to have startups. And I just asked him one question. I said, if you don’t make money, how long do you think you will last? He’s like eight months. I said, look, you have bigger problems to worry about. know, make sure you get back into a full-time job or whatever and save the money for you to do other things. Because by the way, the portfolio life does not pay as much as a full-time job does. And therefore, you know, unless you’re really good at something where people say, look, I want this and I’ll pay whatever, you know, and now in this world of AI, so I’m saying there’s lots of these complexities coming, but the more important part is you in your own head should know what is coming. So the first thing, and Swami, you’ve said it very well.

You need to know what is coming and therefore be prepared for it.

ContraMinds Podcast (39:26.523)

very nice. 

Q7 Experts

And when you look at some of these experts, you know, which I think you have a unique blend of having run an executive search firm and now you looking at Wisdom Circle. When you look at these experts and when you really dissect them as experts where companies say, you know, I need that boiler expert kind of a point that you made, right? So what do you see of them? And when you actually talk to them, what is it that they have acquired over their, you know, 15, 20, 30 year work experience that makes a difference at this stage, which means that I need to prepare all of that in the last 20 years, right, which is very, very important.

Neeraj Sagar (39:54.734)

Hmm.

Neeraj Sagar (40:16.952)

You know I… good question. 

So I tell you what I see in good experts. Good experts, no matter what their age, are still learning about the same thing that they’ve learned. They don’t stop learning. They’re still reading the journals. They’re still reading… they’re in touch with what is going on. And right now, I’ll tell you, I mean, we’re building a semiconductor vertical, and I’m learning a lot about semiconductor expertise. 

And I’ll share that with you if that makes sense, because that’s what India needs. But what we are finding is… they’re passionate or they found an area which energizes them. So, and that has taken time, right? 

Like I tell you, the first few years you don’t want finally, finally you do find what you’re good at, right? And you say, look, I’m good at this and I’ll continue doing it. So the continuous learning piece is a big piece, but at the same time also knowing…

So good experts know what not to do. Because we always talk about good experts know what to do. I mean AI will tell you what to do. Good experts know what not to do. good experts know shortcuts. Good experts know who to call when you need help.

Neeraj Sagar (41:43.758)

Good experts are not compliance. I mean, they’re not, they’re not, mean, they’re the sort of, if in finance terms, you would say, okay, good experts will follow the rule, cover compliance, but traditional good experts, like a good expert in a boiler, good expert is, they will, I mean, it’s the wisdom of experience that says, no one, it’s not written anywhere, but if you do this, these are the five things that can go wrong. But if you don’t do this, these are the 10 things that can go wrong.

And so to me, and it’s people who find joy in that. Again, I don’t claim to be a headhunting expert, but you know, I spend way less time than most of my colleagues have. You know, I only 15 years versus people who have done the 20-30 years. But there are things you can pick up when you talk to an individual, which you know that there’s something wrong here or there’s something, you know, it’s like when you say, my gut says this. 

Good experts have a gut. That has a title written on it, semiconductor gut or a podcaster gut. I mean, you’ve done so many podcasts, you kind of know what is going to work in this podcast, what not, what not, because you’ve done it so many times.

ContraMinds Podcast (42:56.891)

Fantastic, I think beautiful. I think the way you defined an expert was very interesting, staying relevant, doing it on a repeatable basis, on a daily basis, being energized by it. I think it’s a lovely definition of an expert.

Q8 What is Success?

I’m kind of coming to…my last set of rapid fire questions. So the first question I want to ask you is what does success mean to you?

Neeraj Sagar (43:33.066)

It’s changed over time for me. think success early on always meant financial stability, the ability to do what I wanted. It had a lot to do with money initially and stature, titles, how people look at you, etc.

And for some reason, think, you know, once most of us, don’t know, but once you cross 50 and you kind of realize that mortality, you know, has a definition and there’s only so much. I think success for me, in fact, I don’t even use the word success anymore. I think what gives you joy, what gives you happiness, what I think it a lot has to be with, for me, it has to do with impact.

I know it sounds too… but and I’ve seen a lot of people right I’ve seen so many happy people doing non-profit work I’ve seen so many happy people you know teaching I’ve seen so many happy people giving and I always think what’s wrong with them how can they be happy doing this you know but then as you get older you realize you know it’s only so much like at the end curd rice you have to have you know there’s only so much you can eat right what will you have you know if fancy food or been there done that now today if you have fancy food you have to go you know sit in the toilet for longer. So at the end your body balances out your needs versus wants.

ContraMinds Podcast (44:57.563)

So, impact and the, I think that is the important point that you are making, right.

Neeraj Sagar (45:04.332)

And in my case, will impact on people much more and therefore impacting organizations through people, impacting people because they are what they are. think for me that is again, it’s not success. It’s what gives me joy. 

Success. think I’m at least personally, think I’m okay. I do have a success would be that my children turn out better than me. That’s it. I think that’s sort of a maybe a and better than me in anything and everything. To me that would be a good measure. And again I look at it because I remember my dad before he passed away in December, you know, was always happy. Didn’t have much money, but he was always happy. You my kids are doing well. And I think you kind of, you don’t understand this when you’re younger, but you understand it as you get older.

Q9 Advice to a College Student

ContraMinds Podcast (45:52.987)

What would be your advice to an 18 year old in a university today?

Neeraj Sagar (46:04.684)

One of my sons is that and he doesn’t listen to my advice. So I’m like putting him in my mind saying what will I tell him? He’d be like I know dad don’t you know AI, I know ChatGPT, I’ll ask him the question. Honestly, I don’t know Swami. you know, what I can do is maybe if I was 18, what would I do? Maybe that’s the way I can answer that question.

ContraMinds Podcast (46:25.796)

Please do what you are comfortable with and what you are able to say with conviction. That to me is more important.

Neeraj Sagar (46:33.614)

So if I was 18, and I had to re-look at… the future, I would actually do a lot more hands-on work to get ready for what is going to come in the future. I would go, you know, intern in a mechanic shop. I would go, you know, work at McDonald’s. 

I would, you know, I would mow lawns. I would, you know, I would do things. I would be a gardener. I would, 

I would go work in a printing press to see how, you know, books get printed. 

So I would do things a lot more hands on because in a way, there’s a thematic thing here. 

I would expose myself to a lot more things because for someone who’s 18, they’ve got at least another 82 years to go. So you might as well, one, experience things that are going to get outdated because then you can look back and say, oh, I least knew how a book used to be printed. 

But…

I think you will also then be able to navigate the future much better because you can look back on the past and your experiences in the past and not rely only on technology… to tell you everything. 

So I think that’s the only advice I would have.

Q10 Dream Dinner Guests

ContraMinds Podcast (47:49.371)

If you were to invite a couple of people for a dream lunch, who would you invite and why? And they can be living or dead.

Neeraj Sagar (48:05.528)

So I would invite the founder of Egon Zehnder, he actually recently passed away, and his assistant.

And I’ve been fortunate enough to know both of them a little bit, at least as a listener. you know, are the… assistant was… So Egon Zehnder’s assistant was his assistant for life. She joined and she… I mean, literally 50… Imagine 50 years he was an assistant.

And you had Egon Zehnder who built this company in 1964, died at the age of 93 and built a company that I’m so proud to have been associated with. And to me, question, the dream was to be about what kept you going, right? Both became experts in their area and in very different, right? One as an assistant, one as the founder. And both had harmony in how they worked and liked each other and did everything.

And I think it’s on the two and understand from them what, you know, and I wish I can even get a little bit more of that to do because I keep telling that in Wisdom Circle, I’m on a mission. And there are days when you always think about, I doing the right thing? And you question. But there are people who just keep going, going, going. And in spite of the ups and downs, and I’m human, know, downs make me feel down, right? And I’m just thinking, how do you convert the downs into thinking positive? So that’s what I would do.

I haven’t thought about this, but I think that’s what immediately comes to mind.

ContraMinds Podcast (49:39.899)

Beautiful. Beautiful. Beautiful. 

Q11 Best Advice Ever

What’s one piece of advice, I am sure you would have got a lot of advice, but what’s one piece of advice that’s remained with you, which you continue to cherish even today?

Neeraj Sagar (49:58.392)

I think, so one, this is around authenticity. I think there was a, me and a friend of mine were doing some research on authenticity and what does it mean? Because we would always talk about you have to be authentic, you have to be authentic. I think a piece of advice that stayed with me was something that both of us sort of came up with together, which was you are who you are when no one is looking.

And I think just staying true to that, you know, again, I am not that I’m not perfect, but that’s the one that is sort of the post, the lamp post that we work towards that look, that’s what you need to be because and I think, know, age in a way does that you as you get older, we actually don’t care about what others think. Right then. So.

ContraMinds Podcast (50:51.095)

lovely lovely

Neeraj Sagar (50:53.218)

Maybe ties in with this whole longevity pieces. As people get older, they get a hoot about what others think.

ContraMinds Podcast (50:55.803)

Yeah.

Q12 What Neeraj Believes That Other’s Don’t Agree

ContraMinds Podcast (51:00.603)

What’s one thing that you believe in that others don’t agree with you on?

Neeraj Sagar (51:17.742)

What’s one thing that I believe in that others don’t agree on? Maybe I’m answering this as a thing, but I have a lot of beliefs. And I actually don’t care what others think about it. I don’t think there’s anything. I never thought of it that way. I just said this is my belief….whether others believe it or not, that’s their problem. So for example, this question on free will… you can get into these philosophical questions.

My views, your views are your views as long as you are happy with them. Just don’t worry about what others think about it. I think it’s my answer. It’s a good question. Maybe I’ve diverted the answer, given you a roundabout answer, but I honestly don’t.

ContraMinds Podcast (52:01.167)

No, I loved the word that you said which is don’t worry about what others think.

Neeraj Sagar (52:07.946)

And by the way, I was not like this, right? Swami, you know, growing up in middle class India, pursuing a career, pursuing dreams, pursuing this thing, you always think about what are these things because you get judged by others, you get evaluated by others. I think finally, and maybe it is and you’ve been through this journey, the moment you’re doing something on your own, you actually can be yourself a lot more.

Because you don’t have anyone judging you or evaluating you. And people are, they are. Because at the end, you’re doing what you think is right. I wish I was this sooner, but then I was thinking if I was this sooner then I probably would have got fired. I probably would have… So there are these cultural norms and social norms you have to… You have to be evaluated. So you have to do what your boss wants. You have to do… And maybe, I think you touched on something which in the future, maybe what it’ll mean is that we will all be much more self-aware sooner, which will create a lot more disharmony in the world. But at least we will all be authentic.

CLOSING

ContraMinds Podcast (53:21.307)

Beautiful. Nice, nice, nice way of putting it. So on that note of authenticity, don’t worry about what others think and your definition of success and harmony at work. It was a lovely conversation, extremely engaging and the depth of experience and the way you, you know,

put it out there was very, very good. And thanks a lot, Neeraj, for talking to us today. And there’s a lot to take, I’m sure the audience are going to find a lot of takeaways in this conversation. Thanks a lot.

Neeraj Sagar (54:01.99)

My pleasure Swami and thank you for having me and thank you for making me think. Again, maybe this is one of those things that we get older. now, a lot of people don’t make me think as much. I think you me think a lot today. So I think I now need to go drink some chai and get back into routine. Thank you. Bye.

END